March 2006
For more pictures and information see the 1923 Izhevsk Finnish Updated Dragoon page.
Appraisers:  SlimTim, Ron W, Alsky, Radom, DudleyDR/NotPC, WLD Bill, finnmn/ragtop88, Marcus, Michael Jon Littman

I've been collecting rifles in the southeastern US for about 6 years now.  I'm more interested in Enfields and South American Mausers than I am the Mosin Nagant rifles, but strangely there are as many Finn Mosins in my collection as there are Enfields, or close to it.  Finn Mosins imported in the last 10-15 years show up regularly at gun shows and pawn shops in my area, and I have a hard time passing up the nicer or more difficult to find Finns.

The subject of this months appraisal is not a rifle that interest me much.  I've a few Dragoons in my collection as they show up occasionally, not too frequently, but often enough that I've accumulated a few.  An updated dragoon just doesn't appeal to me.

As I mentioned last month, I don't possess a detailed knowledge of the different parts and when they changed during the evolution of different models.  From my viewpoint, this rifle is simply a 91/30 with an early date and a blade front sight.  The 91/30 style rear sight is the main thing that deters me from desiring this rifle.  The fact the rifle is counterbored is a minor consideration, but a consideration nonetheless, so a small negative factor there.  Overall I think the stock is a plus, the marks show use and tell a story, a thing I like about Finnish Mosin Nagants.  The gouge near the sling escutcheon on the buttstock is another minor negative, but just a point to use when haggling were I trying to purchase this rifle.

On the plus side is the antique receiver this rifle is built on, I value antiques a bit more because of the way the law treats rifles dated before 1898.  The SA & 41 marks add a great deal to this rifle in my viewpoint, without them, I'd not be interested in it at all.  Bolt and receiver being matched is always a plus.  The other receiver markings appear clear and nicely struck.  As mentioned above, overall the stock is a positive, as is the older Century import marking at the muzzle.  The marking Century currently uses is hideous.

I would pay $100 for this rifle.  This reflects my general level of interest in it as well the market in my area of the country for such rifles.  If I were selling this rifle, I'd try to get $150 out of it.

I have been collecting Mosins for about 7 years in the Dallas area.   The focus of my collection is Russian guns and copies of them.  Mostly Mosins, 187 of them, with Nagant M1895s (57) and Makarovs (17) coming after that.
 
I am not sure I would call this a dragoon.  It appears to be a M91/30 with Finnish blade sight.  Several of my Finnish built M91/30s have blade sights.  This is a converted dragoon.  A converted dragoon to M91/30 is only worth about $10 more than a regular M91/30.
 
Positives:
Finnish stock.  Although not worth too much extra as it is beat quite a bit.   Looks to be solid though.
Bolt appears to be original matching.  No indication of strike through or grinding of an earlier number.
Lots of extra points for the "41" stamp as those are uncommon.
A plus for early 1920's date as those are also not common.
If the tang date is "1895" as it appears then being antique is a plus for US collectors.
 
Negatives:
Butt plate and floor plate don't match.  This isn't too much of a negative on a Finnish gun as that is just the way they are.
 
Maximum buying price would be $150.
Minimum selling price would be about $200.

I have been shooting & collecting firearms for over "40" years in Central Pa and have concentrated exclusively on "Finnish Firearms " for the last 6 years.    Most all of my Finnish collection has come to me from contacts on the internet.

The positive features of this rifle are the unscrubbed markings on the receiver & over the chamber area, matching numbers, antique receiver, "41" stamp, nice metal finish, sling and the typical looking Finnish stock.

In addition to the import markings (most Finnish dragoons have none as they were imported here in the 50-60's) and maybe the bore condition the other negative issue with this rifle is the upgraded to a M91/30 rear sights.

The upgraded rear sight is also a bit odd for a Finnish dragoon and my collection is missing this variety.  So I would be trying hard to buy this one. 

I would pay $275 for the rifle.  I would ask at least $325 if I had to sell.

I'm Steven "Radom" Henderson.  I've been collecting military firearms in general since the mid 1980s and everything Mosin Nagant for about nine years based in central Oklahoma.  Longtime proud member of Gunboard's Collectors Forum and shall remain so until they have me assassinated!

For the most part, the whole "exDragoon" thing does next to nothing for me.   I mean, I've got a few real Dragoons.  However, this isn't the usual Dragoon updated to 91/30 configuration & refurbed in the most common manner.  I've only heard of a very few Finnish used ones (possibly actually updated by the Finns, who knows for sure?).  Don't own one, never ran across one.

What it has, for me, is what I call a high novelty factor.  I've bought a number of Mosins for no other reason than that, just a bit out of the ordinary.  It has the usual positive features I like in my Finnish used Russian made pieces: used, but not abused, maintained well & with small Finnish improvements.  I'd rather it showed a bit more bluing wear than the probable postwar reblue, but nothing about it is what I'd consider a negative at all.

I would gladly pay $200 for this one.  If forced to sell, I'd try hard to get $300 for it.

I'm WLD Bill and live in the eastern part of Tennessee; the same town as Tuco, Capt Zorro, LBJ, and Ol Duke.  I have collected military firearms for about 56 years.  I am the Senior Technical Advisor for an importing firm.  In my military service days and later I shot competitive pistol and rifle.  I served in the 82nd.  In the last 10 to 12 years I have found a great deal of interest in the Russian and Finnish Mosin firearms, but the greatest things I have found is the friends I have made.

As to the rifle I find its greatest positive feature is the historical value of this item.  I like to hold these old war horses and wonder what they have seen and who they have known.  The over all condition is very good as I see it.  A lot of collectors find the counterbore a negative but I do not.  As to slightly rounded lands and frosting in the bore, I have no problem with this.  Import marks are not something I like but we must live with them so I do not blame this on the rifle.

Maximum amount I would pay for this rifle is $175.  Minimum I would sell it for is $260.

All these Finn items are desirable collector pieces.  Enjoy them.

I have been collecting for 3 years in the Southeast and concentrate on Finnish Mosin Nagants with an attempt to focus on Civil Guard rifles.

Although I present positives and negatives below I would not associate a specific value to any of them, I would use them as an overall way to evaluate the complete rifle.

The positive features of this rifle are:  Reuse of the older 1895 receiver is an interesting feature.  The arsenal markings are nice and clear and you can still see the czarist eagle beneath the soviet wreath/hammer on the receiver flat.  The unknown ‘41’ mark is a nice addition as well.  It is bolt matching (likely by the Finns).   Most of all, you don’t find that many “updated” Dragoon rifles with Finnish arsenal markings, very nice!!

The negative features of this rifle are:  Although it would be nice to have the original solid bands and 2^nd edition Dragoon hand guard, this rifle having been upgraded by the Soviets or Finns these later features would be correct.

This rifle fits my collection on many levels:  It's Finn and I like the Dragoon rifles, which are less common than the infantry model.  This one especially, as I do not have one that has been upgraded so this would represent something not in my collection.  Overall I’d say this is a very nice example of a Finn marked Dragoon/M91/30 rifle.

I would pay $250.00 for this rifle.

I would ask $275.00 for this rifle.

I would place a high, medium, low fair market value on this rifle of $350, $275, $200.  (Auction prices not reflected)  If this was a “normal” Finn marked M91/30 my prices would be lower.

Background:  My name is Marcus von Weigert, and I go by "Marcus" on Tuco's Gunboards, Parallax Bill's forums, and Culver's Shooting Page.  I live in Southern California; formerly in Orange County but since 1999 in Southwest Riverside County.  Nice Mosins, especially early rifles and Finns, are pretty scarce here but do turn up once in a while.  I have been collecting firearms, edged weapons, and military memorabilia for close to 40 years.  My introduction to Mosin-Nagant rifles came with the war trophy Viet Nam War bring-back M44 and Type 53 carbines I purchased from  veterans of that war in the early to mid 1970s.  For the past 10 years Mosins have been one of my major interests, particularly the dragoon and early 91/30 models, and the various Mosin snipers which are currently the main focus of my collecting.  As a result of my interest in dragoons and early 91/30's, I find this rifle particularly noteworthy and collectable for the reasons set forth below.

The rifle:  What makes this rifle interesting and historical is it's Finn heritage.  If it were one of the dragoons that remained in Soviet possession and was updated to 91/30 configuration during one of the massive post-war Soviet  rebuild programs, it would have minimal interest and appeal to me.  However, because it ended up in Finn hands sometime before 1945, it has retained a few features that make it rather unique.  The major one is the 91/30 tangent rear sight.  This site was first used on 91/30s in 1931 and became standard in 1932, the year the last of the dragoon rifles with their M91 curved leaf sight were produced.  Since this one has the 91/30 rear sight, it was obviously upgraded to this configuration sometime between 1932 and 1945.  Most likely by the Soviets, but it could also possibly have been done by the Finns.  The Soviets seem to have started crosspinning the rear sight to the barrel sometime around late 1943 to early 1944 and after WW2 almost all dragoons and very early 91/30s remaining in Soviet inventory had their sights upgraded to the 91/30 tangent rear and post-1933 hooded post front sight, and the rear sights were all crosspinned to the barrel.  This one does not have the crosspins in the rear sight base, a feature generally found only on Finn captured Mosins or the ones used in the Spanish Civil War.

What I like about this rifle:  Obviously, the receiver tang marking - the 95 indicates the receiver was made in 1895 and the single arrow marking means it was produced at Sestroryetsk Arsenal, so this receiver was originally on a Czarist era M91 rifle.  Since the receiver is pre-1898, this rifle is legally classified as an antique and can be sold and shipped through the mail without any of the restrictions placed on post-1898 firearms.  This is a big plus, as pre-1898 firearms have additional value due to this.  During the period from the end of WWI through the 1920s, the Soviets built up many rifles using recycled earlier receivers, so receiver and barrel combination are most likely original.

The next most significant feature is the 91/30 rear sight, as discussed above.  While the Finns could have rescued this sight from a junk 91/30 barrel and used it to replace a damaged M91 rear sight on this rifle, I think it is much more likely that this sight was placed on this barrel by the Soviets sometime before the Finns ended up with it, as the Finns had lots of M91 sights and would have probably replaced a damaged M91 sight with another M91 sight and saved any spare 91/30 rear sight assemblies for repairing damaged 91/30 rifles.  The majority of Finn captured dragoon rifles retain their original rear sights, and these rifles with upgraded 91/30 sights are almost as scarce as ones with M91 sights.

In Soviet configuration, this rifle would either have had the tall version of the M91 blade front sight used with the 91/30 rear sight on rifles built in the 1931 to 1933 period or it would have been further upgraded with the post-1933 91/30 hooded post front sight, but as part of it's Finn repair or overhaul it received one of the unique "stacked" Finn front sights that use an extra dovetailed base to bring the Finn made M91 front sight up to correct 91/30 height.  These stacked front sights are not real common, and add interest and value.

The intact Soviet markings on the receiver  (stamped over an earlier Romanov eagle) and barrel shank are nice.  This early version of the hammer and sickle is slightly different from the later one, and is found on early Soviet M91 infantry rifles and cavalry rifles such as the dragoon and Cossack rifles.  The Finns often removed or defaced the Communist hammer and sickle on captured Mosins, so unmolested ones on this rifle are an added bonus to the original Izhevsk arsenal name in Cyrillic and it's bow and arrow emblem.  Additionally, the rifle has on it's barrel shank the desirable Finnish Army [SA] marking (not all Finn captured Mosins got this) and the "41" marking that is thought to denote "Winter War" capture in 1941.   Interestingly, it does not have the "D" marking on the barrel shank found on many Finn rifles that indicates the rifle will chamber the "D" round.

The bolt is an early Tula piece that was renumbered by either the Finns or Soviets to match the rifle, but is the correct early pattern with the round raised boss where the bolt handle meets the bolt body instead of a later 91/30 bolt like is found in so many Finn captured or Soviet refurbished early rifles.  The cocking piece is early style too.  Some Soviet Mosin rifles from this period have earlier bolts from other makers that are original to the rifle and were renumbered to match the barrel serial number at the arsenal when the rifle was first assembled, but since the number font on the bolt doesn't match the  barrel shank, the bolt was renumbered to match after the rifle was made.  Since this if a Finn captured rifle, this renumbering, whether done by the Soviets or Finns, is fine and this rifle would be considered a "Finn matching" rifle.

The stock is interesting as it appears from the oval sling slot escutcheons held on with 2 little screws to be a Soviet late dragoon or early 91/30 stock that the Finns grafted a new fore end on, as was often done.  I can't see an arsenal stamp on the right side of the buttstock, so this might have originally been a Tula stock.  The Tula star cartouche is stamped much lighter than the round Izhevsk marking, and is often removed completely when the stock was lightly sanded and refinished by the Finns like this one was.  The deeper Izhevsk marking usually leaves at least some kind of visible outline.  While the arsenal marking is gone, several of the other little original Soviet inspector's markings remain and are visible.  The buttplate is mismatched and has the old serial number lined out in typical Finn manner and the buttplate is from a later Izhevsk 91/30.  On a straight Soviet rifle this might be considered a minor flaw or distraction, but it is acceptable and correct on a Finn rifle.  As mentioned above, the bolt is matched to the barrel shank, and this is often all that the Finns did when they repaired or assembled a rifle, so this one could be considered "Finn matching".  Barrel bands, retaining springs, handguard, and cleaning rod are later 91/30 items, which is also common on Finn rifles including early 91/30s and otherwise all original and correct configuration dragoons.  There are a few dents and dings on the stock and some old pitting under the bluing on the receiver, but this doesn't detract from the rifle either, and indeed are evidence of this rifle's combat history.  Also, the barrel has been counterbored, which some folks consider a flaw, but this is common and correct for a Finn rifle; many rifles that have pristine, near mint bores and obviously had good muzzles were still counterbored by the Finns, so I think this was just standard practice when the Finns inspected or repaired a rifle.  Among most Finn collectors, an otherwise nice bore with a counterbore is simply another evidence of the rifle's Finn heritage and does not detract in the least from the rifle's value or collectability.

There is nothing I don't like or find negative about this rifle.   Admittedly, I would like it even more if it had more original and matching pieces, such as the bolt, buttplate, stock and magazine floorplate (one sometimes sees Finn captured and marked Mosins that are otherwise all original matching and in as manufactured configuration) as this would be further proof that the 91/30 rear sight was added by the Soviets prior to Finn capture.  As it is, it's still a very interesting, historical, and desirable rifle.

Value: This is kind of hard to determine.  These Finn captured Soviet dragoons that have been updated with 91/30 sights are fairly scarce, but are at this point still an underappreciated and undervalued rifle.  A nice Soviet or Finn captured dragoon rifle in original configuration is worth around $300, depending on condition and originality.  A similar Finn captured rifle with the features of this rifle, but a standard 91/30 instead of a much scarcer upgraded dragoon, will bring around $125 or so these days. The currently available Soviet post-war refurbished and upgraded dragoons are also in the in the $100 range for a nice one.  I believe that $150 to $200 would be a fair price for this rifle, and if one in this price range came my way I would probably pick it up and add it to my collection.  If I had one and were considering selling it, I would probably ask around $200 to see what kind of interest there was in it and if any astute collectors were awake and paying attention.

I have been collecting firearms for 27 years in the South Eastern United States.  I have been actively collecting Mosin Nagant rifles for 22 years.  My collection is eclectic but my general concentration is the first half of the 20^th Century with an emphasis on the World Wars.

The rifle offered for appraisal is one where the unmistakable intrinsic history is ample and remarkable.  The evident history of this rifle spans Russian history from the era of the Imperial Russian Czars to the early Soviet period to the time when this rifle was captured by the Finns.

The story this rifle tells is complex and compelling.  The complexity of the history of this rifle adds to its general appeal.  Whereas in some fields of historical firearms collecting the object of the collector is to seek out the most pristine examples in their field this is not always the rubric applied in collecting Mosin Nagants.  Mosin Nagants appeal to the collector who has a well defined sense of history.  The more history a rifle manifests the more appealing the rifle becomes to the Mosin Nagant collector.  Like smoking an expertly crafted Cuban cigar or sampling a fine French wine the attraction lies in the small details that reveal themselves as you slowly explore the object at hand.

The rifle offered for appraisal has been rebuilt at least twice in Russian hands and at least once in Finnish hands.  The receiver began life at Sestroryetsk arsenal, Russia in 1895.  Evidence of this is in the form of the fletched arrow and the date 95 on the underside of the receiver tang.  This receiver was evidentially later removed from its original rifle and refurbished during the Soviet era.  This is obvious from the wreathed hammer/sickle surcharge over the Imperial Russian acceptance marking on the top receiver flat.  This is an early Soviet government motif that is consistent with the manufacture date of 1923 visible on the Izhevsk made barrel that is currently installed in the receiver.  It is reasonable to suggest that when the new barrel was installed on the receiver, in 1923, that the resulting weapon was made into a Dragoon.  This Dragoon was later updated with the addition of the later improved rear sights of the kind installed on Soviet M91/30. Again, it is reasonable to suggest this was done while the weapon was in Soviet hands in the period after 1930.  The last chapter in the history of this weapon was written after the rifle was captured by the Finns.  The "41" marking on the right chamber is understood to have been a marking placed by the Finns.  There is some conjecture about when and why this "41" marking was applied but prominent collectors accept that this was a marking applied by the Finns after the capture of the weapon.  The boxed SA marking on the left chamber supports this finding as this is the property marking of the Army of Finland.  The Finns rebuilt this rifle to suit their needs.  To that end it now resides in a Finnish stock that has two pieces dovetailed together.  The rear piece of the stock appears to have originated as a Soviet M91/30 buttstock.  The original Soviet buttplate for that stock appears to have been left intact on the butt.  The front half of the stock appears to be of Finnish arctic Birch and was most likely made in Finland.  The bands, springs, and end cap appear to be bits recycled off Soviet M91/30s.  Please note the difference between the sling slot screws in the butt slot and those in the forearm slot.  The butt sling slot screws have been ground flush, as was common Soviet manufacturing protocol for M91/30 stocks.  The forearm slot screws are not flat as is common with Finnish arsenal built stocks.  Supporting the thesis that the stock is of Finnish manufacture is the Finnish wood putty repair on the left forearm area.  The bolt and magazine bear evidence of having been cycled through the Finnish arsenal system.  The original serial number on the magazine has been struck out, with no effort made to make the serial number match the predominant rifle serial number.  The bolt serial number appears to be a Finnish stamped force match number that was evidentially supplied to this rifle upon its rebuilding by the Finns.  The front sight also appears to be of Finnish manufacture as it appears to be higher that the original Soviet front sight.

The significance of this rifle is that is represents large span of Russian and later Finnish history.  It is in the popular Dragoon length and shows evidence of having been updated while in both Soviet and Finnish hands.  That stated the appeal for this unit is to the more refined collector of Mosin Nagants.  The less practiced collector of these rifles may not totally grasp the significance of its markings.  The more advanced collector may pass this over for a more pure example of the Dragoon, without the Finnish markings and without the rebuilding apparent in this example.  With that made clear, the rifle presents itself well.  It is in generally very good condition after having been rebuilt, for the last time by the Finns.  There are some deep dents in the Soviet side of the stock that may be forgiven by some but the gouges in the wood will not be easily overlooked by most.  These mildly detract from the overall value of the rifle.  The struck though serial number magazine will also mildly affect the value of this rifle in a negative fashion to most collectors.  The value of this rifle may be better expressed in terms of a broad range.  Since the appeal of this rifle is to the more refined middle of the road collectors the price a non collector is willing to pay for a rifle they may not totally comprehend will be low.  To many this may just represent a non matching old Mosin Nagant.  As a result a baseline price of $75.00USD for these folks is not out of line.  To other, more developed collectors this rifle does represent some very interesting historical and developmental themes.  To a collector who can appreciate this piece $250.00USD would be the extreme high end cash value of this example.  I would candidly expect that a more realistic selling price of this piece would more likely be $150.00USD.  This number was obtained by examining a number of auctions, sales on internet sites and most significantly from several recent local (Florida) sales of somewhat similar examples.  In the case of the locally obtained examples a discussion with the buyer elicited the value statement of $150.00USD.